Voyager Series finale was not that great... .

[Dan M]

That's not a bad list, si64.  Some are ones I think are goofy.  A couple are just bad, but there are quite a few episodes in there that I love.  The Most Toys is, to me, a very underrated episode.  It's from that time in the 3rd season when TNG started to hit its stride.  There's like 3 seasons straight there with barely a mis-step.  And I love the ending of that one with the phaser "accidentally" going off.

Future Imperfect is great fun.  Timescape is a good one.  Conspiracy, if only for its uniqueness, is a memorable episode.  The Next Phase holds great memories for me, both as a fun episode, and for the circumstances surrounding my initial viewing of it.   Cause and Effect?  Who doesn't like that one?  Clues is a good one, too.

Actually, I think our tastes are probably very similar, in that I like the fun ones and don't really want a big meaning.

What about The Gambit two-parter?

[moyer777]

I loved "the most toys"  My wife laughs at me because I can watch that episode over and over again.  I just really liked it.

I really liked Gambit one and two also.  Very cool stuff.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

I finally saw Voyager's series finally a few days ago. I don't think the finale was great. I think the biggest reason is because the crew finally made it to Earth and with the entire crew still on Voyager, the episode abruptly ended.

I didn't think it ended abruptly.  They rode the Borg Sphere back to Earth's solar system, Starfleet attacked the Sphere, Voyager destroyed the Sphere from inside, flew out of the wreckage, and met the fleet of Starfleet ships.  Captain Janeway contacted Admiral Paris, and Tom went to sickbay to see his daughter.  Chakotay took the helm, Janeway ordered him to set a coarse for home, then the fleet escorts Voyager to Earth, fade to black.  How is this not a good ending?  ???

TNG's ending was not abrupt. We get to see Captain Picard joining the rest of the senior staff in a game of poker.

True, but TNG had a focus on drama where as VOY had a focus on action (thanks to UPN).

DS9 had a really long ending where some lose ends were tied as most of the main characters took new directions in their lives. I really like the very last scene with Kira and Jake looking out the space station's porthole at all the stars and then the wormhole as it opens up.

You can't expect VOY to end like DS9.  DS9 was a science-fiction soap opera where as VOY was an episodic sci-fi action show.  The only thing the finale necessitated was a return to Earth, and they did that.

Those were great endings unlike Voyager's.

Why were they better than VOY's finale?

We didn't even really get to see Voyager majestically get on orbit around Earth. They simply came through that trans warp conduit, quickly destroyed the Borg ship, exchanged a few words with a Starfleet admiral and then the end.

Agreed.  I would have liked to see Voyager land with the crew climbing down the landing legs with Janeway looking up into the sky (and at the audience) as she quietly whispers, "We made it," then pull back to reveal the ship and crew, then fade to black.

There were no family reunions, no celebrations. . .nothing.

This would be hollow as the only character left behind by the crew that we really got to know was Admiral Paris, and he's in the finale.  Ending with a reunion special would have been anticlimatic.  However, if the first half of the episode featured the return with the second episode focusing on the crew splitting up, that would be fine.  Still, what would the conflict be for that second half?  Even DS9 was smart enough to bring up that Pah-Wraith stuff so there would be a conflict.

A story without a conflict is boring.

[Trekkygeek]

To me, TNG had the best ending with Enterprise taking last place. Voyager was pretty good but DS9 was, i thought, better, I don't see Voyager as an action series though, I saw it as a character show with most episodes based on the ship. They relied on the Borg too much, and by the end of the run, Voyager had kicked their arses so often, that the Borg weren't scary anymore. At the beginning of TNG, they were terrifying even though they sound Swedish.

[space_invader64]

I didn't like Farpoint or All good things.  Both really bad episodes. 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

Voyager was pretty good but DS9 was, i thought, better, I don't see Voyager as an action series though, I saw it as a character show with most episodes based on the ship. They relied on the Borg too much, and by the end of the run, Voyager had kicked their arses so often, that the Borg weren't scary anymore.

To be fair, DS9 featured the Dominion more than VOY featured the Borg, so I don't think they were overused.  Did they loose their edge?  Yes, but that will always happen when you learn more about a villain.  Also, Voyager didn't regularly kick Borg butt, they barely escaped each encounter.

[Poodyglitz]

I didn't like Farpoint or All good things.  Both really bad episodes. 

Thank you! It's because of "Farpoint" that I missed the first season of TNG. I came in on "Best Of Both Worlds". So glad I did.

"All Good Things" cancelled itself out. The last episode of "Voyager" felt a bit like that as well. However, while I really didn't like "Voyager", I'll have to admit that it's final episode is the best of all the "Trek" endings. But I don't believe that that's saying much. The problems with these shows is that as time went by, they became so self-indulgent that their series finales were more masturbation than dramatic wrap-up.

I think it would have been really cool if "Best Of Both Worlds" were the final TNG episode. Or something along those lines. Something originally cataclysmic and compelling with some sort of message (or meaning).

[Poodyglitz]

Voyager was pretty good but DS9 was, i thought, better, I don't see Voyager as an action series though, I saw it as a character show with most episodes based on the ship. They relied on the Borg too much, and by the end of the run, Voyager had kicked their arses so often, that the Borg weren't scary anymore.

The Borg were way overused. They really should have ended at "Best Of Both Worlds". But I am grateful for "First Contact" (the movie). It's the best of the TNG films (and in the top 3 of best overall "Trek" movies). The failure of the "Voyager" producers to develop new and interesting villains caused them to try and re-create past glory.  To this day, the only "Voyager" episode that I can watch repeatedly is "Future's End". Not because it's great drama, but because it's an interesting set of story elements. The fact that the Voyager crew were overpowered by a "primitive". The chase/quest aspect was interesting as well as extraordinary events in familiar settings taking place. The danger of discovery was compelling also. Or was it simply that Sarah Silverman was so hot?

To be fair, DS9 featured the Dominion more than VOY featured the Borg, so I don't think they were overused.  Did they loose their edge?  Yes, but that will always happen when you learn more about a villain.  Also, Voyager didn't regularly kick Borg butt, they barely escaped each encounter.

It's funny. The whole idea of a long story arc came when the "Babylon 5" folks pitched the idea of a space station to Paramount and got rejected. "B5" did it much better. They just didn't have the advantage of a budget for sets.

The Dominion (more succintly, the J'hem H'darr) were defanged more than overused. Initially a wonderul concept, they were introduced as nigh invincible. Then the humans were able to even hold their own in hand-to-hand combat. It would have been really cool if The Dominion had taken over the quadrant, enslaved everyone, much like the Cardassians, but on a larger scale. It could have had the darkness of the DS9 mirror universe with a twist. Making a parallel with WWII underground resistance could have been really powerful. It would have really fulfilled the promise of DS9 being a darker and grittier "Trek". Instead, it came off as a costumed soap opera.

[PepperDude]

It would have been really cool if The Dominion had taken over the quadrant, enslaved everyone, much like the Cardassians, but on a larger scale.

But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

I think most Star Trek fans wouln't have liked such a story line. You're right about the J'hem H'darr being defanged though. The first time we saw one of them he stepped out of a force field and I was like "No WAY! The Federation is gonna get whooped."

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

The Borg were way overused. They really should have ended at "Best Of Both Worlds". But I am grateful for "First Contact" (the movie). It's the best of the TNG films (and in the top 3 of best overall "Trek" movies).

You wanted to see the Borg defeated after a mere 3 episodes?  Blah... where's the fun in that?  I find the Borg Collective far more scarier than a single Cube.  By the way, I agree that First Contact is the best TNG film, though Insurrection is my favorite.

The failure of the "Voyager" producers to develop new and interesting villains caused them to try and re-create past glory.  To this day, the only "Voyager" episode that I can watch repeatedly is "Future's End". Not because it's great drama, but because it's an interesting set of story elements. The fact that the Voyager crew were overpowered by a "primitive". The chase/quest aspect was interesting as well as extraordinary events in familiar settings taking place. The danger of discovery was compelling also.

First off, the Voyager producers came and went as the series progressed.  Second, they did not fail to develope new and interesting villains.  Do you forget the Kazon, Vadiians, Hirogen, Species 8472, Malon, and Krenim?  The only villain that was borrowed from TNG for more than two or three episodes is the Borg.  This is because Voyager was heading on a path from Point A to Point B, so once a recurring alien was left behind, that was that.  After First Contact, they had all that Borg stuff left over, plus the Borg can fly across the galaxy easilly, so they had the perfect villain for the series: the Borg, featured in only six episode of TNG and one movie.  We knew so little about them, so it made sense to explore them just like TNG explored the Klingons and Romulans that were barely featured in TOS.

"Future's End, Parts I & II" are my favorite episodes from Season 3 for all the reasons you mentioned and more.

It's funny. The whole idea of a long story arc came when the "Babylon 5" folks pitched the idea of a space station to Paramount and got rejected. "B5" did it much better. They just didn't have the advantage of a budget for sets.

I've heard the DS9 ripped off B5! argument before, and I just don't care, largely because this happens in Hollywood all the time.  The DS9/B5 situation is nothing special.  Anyway, I tried to watch both shows.  DS9 was fun where as B5 was dark, dull, and lifeless.  A TV show seems pointless without a sense of fun.

The Dominion (more succintly, the J'hem H'darr) were defanged more than overused. Initially a wonderul concept, they were introduced as nigh invincible. Then the humans were able to even hold their own in hand-to-hand combat. It would have been really cool if The Dominion had taken over the quadrant, enslaved everyone, much like the Cardassians, but on a larger scale. It could have had the darkness of the DS9 mirror universe with a twist. Making a parallel with WWII underground resistance could have been really powerful. It would have really fulfilled the promise of DS9 being a darker and grittier "Trek". Instead, it came off as a costumed soap opera.

You've got to have the Human characters win a few engagements, otherwise you've written yourself into a corner with an undefeatable enemy.  Besides, I seem to remember the Federation getting the upper hand only because they realised they had to increase their numbers.  That ment more security officers and more starships.

I'm glad they didn't have the Dominion take over the Alpha Quadrant and enslave everyone.  That would have been depressing and killed my interest in the series.  This is Star Trek, not Star Wars.

[moyer777]

I just love Future's end.  That is some of the best Trek!

"Freakasaurus"  Goliath Gulps....

great episodes.

The Year of Hell was really good too.

[Locutus]

I've heard the DS9 ripped off B5! argument before, and I just don't care, largely because this happens in Hollywood all the time.  The DS9/B5 situation is nothing special.  Anyway, I tried to watch both shows.  DS9 was fun where as B5 was dark, dull, and lifeless.  A TV show seems pointless without a sense of fun.

Actually, this happens much less than you'd think in Hollywood. They don't just rip off each other's shows, it would be bad for business. Yes, they are both space stations. Yes, they are both about war. But they go about it in two different ways.

However, you should be careful characterizing B5 as dull and lifeless - it was one of the first shows to illustrate true change in characters/species/universes, and with the exception of the first half of season 5, was an amazingly well-told, high-brow, intelligent and very intense series. There were completely original aliens with in depth political situations; it tackled alcoholism; criminal rehabilitation; real human issues. In no way was that show dull and/or lifeless - in fact, I would put the writing for B5 up against most episodes of other scifi shows, and I bet it would do just fine.

But yes, I will give you dark. A show is not pointless without a sense of fun. Sometimes, adults like real politik with their wanton destruction.

[Poodyglitz]

First off, the Voyager producers came and went as the series progressed.  Second, they did not fail to develope new and interesting villains.  Do you forget the Kazon, Vadiians, Hirogen, Species 8472, Malon, and Krenim?

Yes, and the only one interesting were the Krenim. At least there was some semblance of depth of character. The Kazon seemed too much like Klingon rip-offs, the Vadiians too B-movie-ish (I'm also feeling that way a little about Species 8472), the Hirogen were too one-dimensional and the Malon were slightly darker Ferengi.

I've heard the DS9 ripped off B5! argument before, and I just don't care, largely because this happens in Hollywood all the time.  The DS9/B5 situation is nothing special.  Anyway, I tried to watch both shows.  DS9 was fun where as B5 was dark, dull, and lifeless.  A TV show seems pointless without a sense of fun.

Perhaps here we're talking a matter of taste. I don't think B5 reached its potential, but it did have more interesting characters. It's first season was a little flat, but they did pick up the pace. I thought the attempt at fun in DS9 came off a little goofy. With all of that Bajoran spirituality, I thought it very stiff. DS9 came off as a show that didn't know what it wanted to be, which is why we'll never see a movie based on that show. B5 suffered from lack of budget and fear of cancellation (which is why they wrapped up the story a little too quickly).

B5 had its humor, just not so much up front. G'Kar and Londo's tete-a-tetes were interesting. I'll always remember G'Kar in Garibaldi's quarters, upon seeing the picture of Daffy Duck and inquiring whether it was a representation of one of his (Garibalidi's) gods. Garibaldi's pause for thought and response were pretty funny.

I'm glad they didn't have the Dominion take over the Alpha Quadrant and enslave everyone.  That would have been depressing and killed my interest in the series.  This is Star Trek, not Star Wars.

O.K., but consider this. The original premise of the show was to be darker and have more interpersonal conflict between the characters. This was a crew on The Frontier (much like the Old West). It follows that situations had to be more dangerous than normal. Why have a series that couldn't surpass the one that came before it?

Had the Dominion totally taken over the sector, there could have been interesting dramatic opportunities, as well as fulfillment of extraordinary danger. Cardassians could have been brought to the point of admitting how wrong they were to occupy Bejor. They could have been shown more by the Bejorans how to work together as an underground network. More effective stories could have been told to explore the depravity of slavery and bigotry. We could have had more purposeful cameos by TNG characters. Everyone could have grown  to put their differences aside for the common good. There's nothing like a common enemy to inspire cooperation (yes, they sort of touched upon that). Certain ironies could have been played up to add fun and humor to it all. Even in the worst of circumstances, a sense of humor is critical. Characters could have evolved their thinking to seeing why the Federation ethic is a good one. After all, societal invasion (as well as contamination) is what the Prime Directive is meant to protect against. The underdogs could have defeated their enemy more by brains, cunning. The series could have ended with all planets in that sector joining The Federation. How cool would that have been?

[Poodyglitz]

But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

If this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

I think most Star Trek fans wouln't have liked such a story line. You're right about the J'hem H'darr being defanged though. The first time we saw one of them he stepped out of a force field and I was like "No WAY! The Federation is gonna get whooped."

Perhaps discovering other species dominated by The Dominion could have been a twist on finding new life and new civilizations. However it could have gone down, let's just consider it a missed opportunity.

[Poodyglitz]

Actually, this happens much less than you'd think in Hollywood. They don't just rip off each other's shows, it would be bad for business. Yes, they are both space stations. Yes, they are both about war. But they go about it in two different ways.

However, you should be careful characterizing B5 as dull and lifeless - it was one of the first shows to illustrate true change in characters/species/universes, and with the exception of the first half of season 5, was an amazingly well-told, high-brow, intelligent and very intense series. There were completely original aliens with in depth political situations; it tackled alcoholism; criminal rehabilitation; real human issues. In no way was that show dull and/or lifeless - in fact, I would put the writing for B5 up against most episodes of other scifi shows, and I bet it would do just fine.

But yes, I will give you dark. A show is not pointless without a sense of fun. Sometimes, adults like real politik with their wanton destruction.

Well put. I'm actually glad that Paramount passed on B5. That way, it got to be B5. I'm also looking forward to the B5 movie.