Voyager Series finale was not that great... .

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

Actually, this happens much less than you'd think in Hollywood. They don't just rip off each other's shows, it would be bad for business. Yes, they are both space stations. Yes, they are both about war. But they go about it in two different ways.

I ment that peoples ideas are stolen all the time, I didn't mean this exact situation.  On the other hand, the DS9/B5 fiasco could just be an amazing coincidence. :blink

However, you should be careful characterizing B5 as dull and lifeless - it was one of the first shows to illustrate true change in characters/species/universes, and with the exception of the first half of season 5, was an amazingly well-told, high-brow, intelligent and very intense series. There were completely original aliens with in depth political situations; it tackled alcoholism; criminal rehabilitation; real human issues. In no way was that show dull and/or lifeless - in fact, I would put the writing for B5 up against most episodes of other scifi shows, and I bet it would do just fine.

Those are the reasons why I didn't watch the show.  I enjoy dark, slow, gritty movies, but when I watch a TV show... I want to watch something FUN, not something that'll leave me feeling depressed at the end of the episode. ::)

Yes, and the only one interesting were the Krenim. At least there was some semblance of depth of character. The Kazon seemed too much like Klingon rip-offs, the Vadiians too B-movie-ish (I'm also feeling that way a little about Species 8472), the Hirogen were too one-dimensional and the Malon were slightly darker Ferengi.

Did you actually watch any of the Kazon episodes?  Their similarity to Klingons begins and ends with their appearance.  I'm glad we got a Klingon-looking alien, to be honest.  We always see aliens that resemble Human, why not an alien that resembles a familiar alien besides the Vulcans and Romulans?  The Vadiians and Species 8472 may seem like something out of a horror movie, but... that's the point.  As for the Hirogen being too one-dimension, again, this is intentional.  We learned that the Hirogen were so obsessed with hunting prey, it was leading to their own extinction.  Finally, the Malon... what do garbage ship people have to do with guys obsessed with prophet?

Perhaps here we're talking a matter of taste. I don't think B5 reached its potential, but it did have more interesting characters. It's first season was a little flat, but they did pick up the pace. I thought the attempt at fun in DS9 came off a little goofy. With all of that Bajoran spirituality, I thought it very stiff. DS9 came off as a show that didn't know what it wanted to be, which is why we'll never see a movie based on that show. B5 suffered from lack of budget and fear of cancellation (which is why they wrapped up the story a little too quickly).

DS9 didn't know what it wanted to be?  It's called variety!  I thought all of the humor worked well except for the Ferengi-centric episodes.  As for the spirituallity, I agree... having a spiritual character is one thing, but they went a little too far with the Bajorans.  It felt like they were making fun of religion, becaus eapparantly all religious Bajorans are simpleton farmers. ::)

B5 gets a movie, because there's only one B5 show.  DS9 doesn't get a movie, because Paramount says, "Why make a DS9 movie when we can make a movie based on one of the other Star Trek shows?"  That's really the only reason why it won't be made into a movie.

B5 had its humor, just not so much up front. G'Kar and Londo's tete-a-tetes were interesting. I'll always remember G'Kar in Garibaldi's quarters, upon seeing the picture of Daffy Duck and inquiring whether it was a representation of one of his (Garibalidi's) gods. Garibaldi's pause for thought and response were pretty funny.

See, that was the problem with the show.  It was too alien.  That type of humor just falls flat to me.

O.K., but consider this. The original premise of the show was to be darker and have more interpersonal conflict between the characters. This was a crew on The Frontier (much like the Old West). It follows that situations had to be more dangerous than normal. Why have a series that couldn't surpass the one that came before it?

The show really wasn't that dark during the first two seasons.  As for interpersonal conflict, well... that's expected when half your station's crew are Bajorans and civilians. ;) We did see situations more dangerous than normal: a war spanning a quarter of the galaxy.  As for why the serious couldn't surpass TNG... the average viewer tuned into DS9, saw a space station, decided it's boring because they don't go anywhere, and thus tuned out.  Fortunately, sci-fi shows had a big audience in the 1990's, so DS9 was kept around by that audience.

Had the Dominion totally taken over the sector, there could have been interesting dramatic opportunities, as well as fulfillment of extraordinary danger. Cardassians could have been brought to the point of admitting how wrong they were to occupy Bejor. They could have been shown more by the Bejorans how to work together as an underground network. More effective stories could have been told to explore the depravity of slavery and bigotry. We could have had more purposeful cameos by TNG characters. Everyone could have grown  to put their differences aside for the common good. There's nothing like a common enemy to inspire cooperation (yes, they sort of touched upon that). Certain ironies could have been played up to add fun and humor to it all. Even in the worst of circumstances, a sense of humor is critical. Characters could have evolved their thinking to seeing why the Federation ethic is a good one. After all, societal invasion (as well as contamination) is what the Prime Directive is meant to protect against. The underdogs could have defeated their enemy more by brains, cunning. The series could have ended with all planets in that sector joining The Federation. How cool would that have been?

The show is called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, not Star Trek: Dominion War, there's too many Dominion episodes as it is.  It'd also be entirely unrealistic to have everyone join the Federation, just because they lead the war to defeat the Dominion.  Did everyone join the USA when it ended World War II?

But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

If this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Meanwhile, the VOY audience would be asking, "Who the heck is the Dominion?"  The movies would flop, because Star Trek would be ripping off Star Wars.

[Poodyglitz]

Did you actually watch any of the Kazon episodes?  Their similarity to Klingons begins and ends with their appearance.  I'm glad we got a Klingon-looking alien, to be honest.  We always see aliens that resemble Human, why not an alien that resembles a familiar alien besides the Vulcans and Romulans?

Yes, and I grew tired of the Kazon arc very quickly. Especially the whole Ceska thing. The Kazon just came off as a biker gang to me. I don't have problems with non-human aliens. Just half-baked ones.

O.K., but consider this. The original premise of the show was to be darker and have more interpersonal conflict between the characters. This was a crew on The Frontier (much like the Old West). It follows that situations had to be more dangerous than normal. Why have a series that couldn't surpass the one that came before it?

The show really wasn't that dark during the first two seasons.  As for interpersonal conflict, well... that's expected when half your station's crew are Bajorans and civilians. ;) We did see situations more dangerous than normal: a war spanning a quarter of the galaxy.  As for why the serious couldn't surpass TNG... the average viewer tuned into DS9, saw a space station, decided it's boring because they don't go anywhere, and thus tuned out.  Fortunately, sci-fi shows had a big audience in the 1990's, so DS9 was kept around by that audience.

My problem with the show is that it for me, it never lived up to the hype. The conflict came off a silly and eventually, any growth between characters was at the romance novel level. I believe that a show can be gripping, intelligent and fun at the same time. It just takes a little effort and cooperation. I believe that there were impediments to that goal within the staff structure of that show. The only character that was interesting to me as Jadzia Dax. The dynamic between Dax and Sisko (as well as the ironies) were the kind of thing that DS9 should have explored. Again, we seem to have a difference in taste.

One reason they added the Defiant was to bring back the sense of forward motion. There were a few runabout episodes as well.

The show is called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, not Star Trek: Dominion War, there's too many Dominion episodes as it is.

Yep. But then again, they were the most interesting enemy.

It'd also be entirely unrealistic to have everyone join the Federation, just because they lead the war to defeat the Dominion.  Did everyone join the USA when it ended World War II?

In a way, yes. In a way, no. We certainly gained a lot of allies as well as immigrants. The United Nations became based in the US. We had a lot of love from the world. It's only recent events that have eroded that bond with our allies. We gained a new enemy in Russia after WWII, but it is not a perfect world.

But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

If this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Meanwhile, the VOY audience would be asking, "Who the heck is the Dominion?"  The movies would flop, because Star Trek would be ripping off Star Wars.

Well, "First Contact" did pretty well. Who outside of Trek knew about The Borg? Anyway, didn't DS9 end before Voyager? The Voyager crew returned after the Dominion War, right?

If it were done right, the Star Trek sensibilty would have transcended that of Star Wars. It would have had a more dramatic element as well as less fantastic. The human drama would have made the difference. Star Wars is about more of a mythical aspect while Star Trek is more about human possibility. The whole Federation would not have been subsumed, just that sector of space. The threat to the Federation could have been more interesting. Star Trek could have worked it more like Shakespeare. But then, this tangent is pure speculation anyway.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

Yes, and I grew tired of the Kazon arc very quickly. Especially the whole Ceska thing. The Kazon just came off as a biker gang to me. I don't have problems with non-human aliens. Just half-baked ones.

I liked the Kazon arc, especially Seska.  I guess not everyone will like the same plots.

My problem with the show is that it for me, it never lived up to the hype. The conflict came off a silly and eventually, any growth between characters was at the romance novel level. I believe that a show can be gripping, intelligent and fun at the same time. It just takes a little effort and cooperation. I believe that there were impediments to that goal within the staff structure of that show. The only character that was interesting to me as Jadzia Dax. The dynamic between Dax and Sisko (as well as the ironies) were the kind of thing that DS9 should have explored. Again, we seem to have a difference in taste.  One reason they added the Defiant was to bring back the sense of forward motion. There were a few runabout episodes as well.

First off, I don't care about hype.  I care about content.  There were some lame episodes here and there, but overall, DS9 was entertaining, and that's all I expect from a TV show.  It seems you prefer character-driven drama where as DS9 is a plot-driven show with a few character-driven episodes.  Personally, I prefer the plot-driven shows.  When the characters get more screen time then the plot, I get bored.  TV shows today spend too much time developing characters, and not enough time developing the plot, forcing a lot of episodes to end with unecessary cliffhangers.  I don't care what the character had for breakfast, get on with the story!  The Defiant was introduced, because they realised they needed a ship in addition to the space station.  Runabouts don't really count, because they served the same purpose shuttlecraft served on the other shows.

The show is called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, not Star Trek: Dominion War, there's too many Dominion episodes as it is.

Yep. But then again, they were the most interesting enemy.

Perhaps, but the show is not about the Dominion, it's about Space Station Deep Space Nine and it's crew.  The Dominion is merely there to provide conflict.  For Seasons 3-5, the Dominion is only there for five or so episodes per season.  They didn't become integral to the show until Season 6.

It'd also be entirely unrealistic to have everyone join the Federation, just because they lead the war to defeat the Dominion.  Did everyone join the USA when it ended World War II?

In a way, yes. In a way, no. We certainly gained a lot of allies as well as immigrants. The United Nations became based in the US. We had a lot of love from the world. It's only recent events that have eroded that bond with our allies. We gained a new enemy in Russia after WWII, but it is not a perfect world.

I generally think of the UFP as the USA with each planet being comparable to a US state.  The UFP has allies just like the USA has allies, but we didn't get additional states just like the UFP didn't get additional members.

But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

If this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Meanwhile, the VOY audience would be asking, "Who the heck is the Dominion?"  The movies would flop, because Star Trek would be ripping off Star Wars.

Well, "First Contact" did pretty well. Who outside of Trek knew about The Borg? Anyway, didn't DS9 end before Voyager? The Voyager crew returned after the Dominion War, right?

If it were done right, the Star Trek sensibilty would have transcended that of Star Wars. It would have had a more dramatic element as well as less fantastic. The human drama would have made the difference. Star Wars is about more of a mythical aspect while Star Trek is more about human possibility. The whole Federation would not have been subsumed, just that sector of space. The threat to the Federation could have been more interesting. Star Trek could have worked it more like Shakespeare. But then, this tangent is pure speculation anyway.

First Contact did well, because it didn't require you to know who the Borg were.  All you had to know was that the Borg were evil cyborgs from the TV show, and Picard fills you in on everything else.  It's also not a war movie, but rather an invasion story.

Yes, DS9 ended two years before VOY ended.  Yes, Voyager returned to Earth in the VOY finale, two years after the Dominion War ended.

Star Trek is about an optimistic future, not war.  If you do a war movie, the casual movie goer is going to say it ripped off Star Wars and probably pass on seeing it.  I would pass, too, because I have zero interest in a Star Trek war movie.  Space battles are OK, because they're more personal and have stakes directly tied to the characters.

[Bryancd]

The Kazon were the dude's from The Road Warrior in space!

[Poodyglitz]

I do like plot-driven shows as well. Even character driven productions can get bogged down in self-indulgence. TNG suffered from that. I didn't need to see Dr. Crusher doing a soft-shoe routine. That stuff sometimes had it's place (like Data playing violin with his mother). I'd prefer a good balance between plot and character. Relationships are what make Star Trek stand out from other properties.

Give me stories like

"The Abyss"
"Aliens"
"The Empire Strikes Back"
"Raiders of the Lost Ark"
"The Day The Earth Stood Still"
"Yesterday's Enterprise"
"Darmok"
"The Best of Both Worlds"
"Space Seed"
"The Wrath of Khan"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"
"Amok Time"
"Batman Begins"
"A Clockwork Orange"
"The Incredibles"

[Poodyglitz]

The Kazon were the dude's from The Road Warrior in space!

OMG, that's funny! I laughed so hard I almost farted.

[moyer777]

I always laughed at the Kazon's hair, it was so bad!  It looked like they had fallen asleep on the couch several nights in a row and then someone hairsprayed them with aqua net.  (the extreme hold style)

That and I always thought that a race of warriors that kicked butt so much and had big cool ships could surely make water somehow.

I don't know, they were my least favorite aliens. 

[Trekkygeek]

Again though, it shows how much Paramount messed up. They had this amazing idea of sending a ship 75,000 light years away, the series to follow their journey and adventures. But all they could come up with was rubbish enemies in the form of The Kazon, too many lacklustre episodes and Neelix. A great opportunity wasted.

[Bryancd]

Talk about self indulgence, how about Vic frackin Fountaine in DS9! OK, I get it, B&B love the rate pack! They kept going back to those bottle shows and it really became tedious. That joke was good once, maybe twice. Same thing with Seven on VOY, she featured EXTREMELY heavily in many episodes. OK, I get it, she has big cans!

[Trekkygeek]

Okay, so i'll give you the fact that they used Vic Fontaine too much. But would you agree that DS9 was far more in-depth and rewarding than VOY? and that the the finale of DS9 wrapped things off so much better than VOY?

[Geekyfanboy]

Wow... so much Voyager hating going on.. I for one loved it.. it's right up there with TNG and DS9 was a close second. But everyone has there opinions.

[moyer777]

Voyager was great.  I loved it.  Very cool.

The Kazon were goofy, but hey, look at the Ferangies.  They were goofy too... butt heads!  :)

Voyager was most like TNG to me, and I love TNG the most.

[Trekkygeek]

Oh don't get me wrong. I love Voyager but am just saying that I didn't love it as much as TNG or Voy. Its still Trek and i enjoy watching the odd episode, just not as often as TNG

[PepperDude]

Bryancd, you're right about Seven but I still don't mind seeing her onscreen.   ;D

[Bryancd]

Okay, so i'll give you the fact that they used Vic Fontaine too much. But would you agree that DS9 was far more in-depth and rewarding than VOY? and that the the finale of DS9 wrapped things off so much better than VOY?

Oh, don't get me wrong, Tim, I thought DS9 was terrific and a real departure for ST. It's almost a shame they felt the need to bring in the Defiant to get them off the station more, I always thought that was a cop out. But DS9 was so interesting and different.
Kenny, I love VOY because it Trek back at it's roots. It's fun and exciting, just what we needed after the gravitas of DS9.
Oh, and PepperDude, not that there's anything wrong with that! ;)