The Sarah Connor Chronicles - spoilers

[Vartok]

 :jemhadar
With this series I REALLY like how the Cameron terminator is not written to follow the typical plot line.  For example, when you thought she might easily save the foreign couple she gave the diamond to for information - she just walks out and allows them to be shot.  This type of character development has happened at least 3 or 4 times.  Those twists make the plot line new since in so many serials the ending is so stereotypical (good guys win, bad guys don't).  Quite honestly, just about every ST episode follows this style of ending.

And why did the bad terminator model let the FBI agent live (besides not knocking a key character)?  That didn't make sense unless that terminator knows the future somewhat. Any ideas on that?

And what is not to like about Cameron/Summer character anyway?  The ballet dancing, the trying to learn human gestures, it's Data-like.  Notice how she walks mechanically everywhere with a little up and down motion?  And, for the male species out there, she is not hard to look at either!  Right!?

Wish we didn't have to wait until next season.

[MouseSlayer]

initial response to why the terminator didn't off the fbi agent? he did lower his weapon and almost became accepting of his inferiority to the machine. maybe this submissive behavior made him a non threat or enacted a proper relationship thing within the machine with humans serving at the whim of the machine, or maybe it's just sadistic and playing head games with him. there's probably more too it though since I'm so often off the mark anyway.

[Rico]

Good thoughts on the FBI guy.  Of course, the real reason is probably he is one of the main actors on the show and they didn't want to hire a new one.  ;)

[ElfManDan]

there's probably more too it though since I'm so often off the mark anyway.

I agree with this, I hope the show doesn't get cancelled, so we can find out. What a great show.

[Locutus]

Well, I can't give it the glowing props you did, but I will say it was about 300X better than I thought it would be ... which brings it up to passable IMHO.

The main concept about Chrome Artie does not work, since non-living things can't come through the wormhole/time tunnel in the first eps. So right there, one whole storyline is a fail.

Reese was just annoying. He kept complaining about River (she'll always be River to me), but she was the one who saved him when a different toaster went berserk in the future.

The girl jumping off the school was a pointless distraction promptly forgotten about as soon as it got in the way of the (illogical) Chrome Artie killing everyone.

John's freaky lab partner was another pointless distraction.

Actually, there were a lot of pointless distractions that went nowhere.

I guess I'll have to amend my rating to BARELY passable.

[Geekyfanboy]

You complain that there were alot of pointless story lines.. but you have to remember that this series of 13 episodes only got to 9 completed. Who's to say that some of the story lines were wrapped up by the 13th episode. I think it's unfair to judge this series with lack of storyline completion.. they never got a chance to complete them.

[Locutus]

Fair enough. I did not know that it had to end a few eps early. I will amend my comment to "These looked like pointless distractions, but knowing what I know now, I hope they may be resolved in the first couple of eps next season."

Even so, the first two points have nothing to do with the abbreviated season. The Terminator head should not have been able to come through the wormhole, and it just rang false that Reese wouldn't at least tolerate River instead of constantly wanting to kill her. Being cautious is one thing. Being openly hostile is something else entirely.

I will say, hiring James Urbaniak, one of my favorite actors, gives the show some much needed legitimacy. Now if they can just overcome their lazy writing. The show has plenty of action, so that isn't really an issue. The special effects don't bother me either. I can't really stand any of the main characters - Sarah is way too antagonistic, John whines like Muad Dib in the SciFi Channel version of Dune, and River was perfectly blended in when she met John at the beginning, but as soon as he found out she was a toaster, she suddenly had no social skills and knew nothing.

It could be a really good show, even if it does apparently contradict the third movie, which I have not seen. It just needs some good writers and for the mains to be more relatable.

[Dan M]

The main concept about Chrome Artie does not work, since non-living things can't come through the wormhole/time tunnel in the first eps. So right there, one whole storyline is a fail.

I think that made all of us stop and wonder when it first happened.  I know it was a topic of conversation at work the next day.  Maybe time travel is really bad for non-organics, making it almost pointless.  Obviously, Chromartie was in a bad shape after his time travel experience (and being blown up!).

I actually have a harder time buying the Terminator putting itself back together.

Reese was just annoying. He kept complaining about River (she'll always be River to me), but she was the one who saved him when a different toaster went berserk in the future.

She's also part of the group which enslaved the human race and killed everyone he's ever cared about.  In light of that, I'm going to give Reese a pass on "complaining".

The girl jumping off the school was a pointless distraction promptly forgotten about as soon as it got in the way of the (illogical) Chrome Artie killing everyone.

At a minimum, the girl underscored the conflict between John wanting to be a hero and his mother (the titular star of the show) not wanting to let him take on that role yet.  Also, that storyline hasn't been forgotten. 

John's freaky lab partner was another pointless distraction.

She was in the final 2-parter.  They clearly haven't dropped the storyline.  It's just not over yet.

Actually, there were a lot of pointless distractions that went nowhere.

There are a lot of things that haven't been resolved yet, after just 9 episodes.

Patience, grasshopper.

[Geekyfanboy]

I thought this was pretty good.. it's an editorial from Slice of Scifi.

Time Travel

Written by: Emilio D'alise (SoSF Staff Journalist)

I had a hard time writing this, so I took (meaning in the past) a small trip to the future, logged on (meaning in the future) to Slice of SciFi, printed this piece out (in the future), came back (in the past), and here it is. Nice writing, if I will say so myself . . . er . . . do say so myself. By the way, there was a news item on the Slice of SciFi site (in the future) regarding the SciFi Channel switching to 24-hours wrestling format. Apparently in the future no one notices the change, having long since given up on the channel.

But I digress. Time Travel. I had a hard time writing this . . . wait . . . ah, here we go.

One of my favorite current TV shows is Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (TTSCC). The stories are good, the characters are good, the action is good . . . I just have to ignore the whole time travel stuff. For one thing, we don't have a language for it. Tenses in particular are a bit difficult (hence the annotation in the first sentence). For those interested, there are many places on the net exploring the implications, possibility, mechanics, consequences, and even grammar of time travel. Really, most of it is pretty good, and all of it will give you a headache.

My opinion is the time travel plotline in Star Trek: Enterprise is what ultimately caused that show to fail (it did fail, right? Or was that on another timeline? Dang! . . . I should keep track).

While time travel is part of the general TTSCC background story, it's not shoved down our throat as it has been in some recent movies. It is not in itself the vehicle for moving the story along. Remove the whole time travel idea, and it's about a group of people who know "smart" machines are plotting to take over the world. Think about it . . . the machines are already there. The characters are fighting a real and present danger. The show tapped into the Terminator franchise, but really the premise could work with "regular" super-robots, without them having to come from the future.

For there is no question Judgment Day will come.

It has to, or the "bad" terminators, the ones who wear pants instead of the occasional miniskirt, would not be here. (Side note: a good sign of impending action scenes is when Summer Glau is wearing pants.) Why, even if they can keep the actual judgment day from occurring, they still have all these Terminators running around. Likely, the day would just be postponed.

Or is the thought once Judgment Day is averted, all these present-day Terminators will cease to exist? In that case, John would cease to exist as well, for Kyle Reese would never have come back to father him. How would that work? Would time "step back" to before the first Terminator movie timeline? Would Arnold suddenly be fit again?

You see, the machines have to strike, or John would not be alive. His existence is immutable proof that it will happen. And that leads to some implications. What follows are spoilers.

. . . well, not really. I don't know for a fact what I am about to reveal is true or not. It should be, but the writers could pull some sleight of hands, and make it all work out some other way. It would be wrong, but they could do it. Anyway, here it is.

Summer Glau's character, and Reese (the current one), and all the Terminators, and all associated time travelers from the future, they all have to die or be destroyed before arriving back at their own time. That would close the loop, as it did in the first two movies. My prediction, if the series continues, is that it will end on Judgment Day. Big explosions, smoke, noise, and cool looking Transformer-like machines involved in drastic population control.

All the backward time travelers need to be disposed of, or you end up with two Summer Glau Terminators, and they would be the same one. While some may say that is not a bad thing, it becomes a repeating loop. In fact, if she makes it to the time when she gets sent back, you'd instantly have an infinite number of copies hanging around. In short, the world would be ass-deep in Summer Glau copies. Sort of like a geek's idea of heaven.

[Locutus]

So, I just finished watching the original Terminator, and two things stuck out.

1) They talk about how Artie gets through the wormhole - he is surrounded by living flesh, so everything inside him can pass though, but his clothes can't. (Caveat - Reese also says he didn't build it so he isn't sure how it works. It could be keyed to living flesh and terminators or something.) This, if you take it at face value, plainly states that Chrome Artie could not have gotten through the wormhole.

2) Kyle Reese says he does not remember the war and grew up after it. He also does not mention a brother, but he does mention a family, so that could be implied. But in the show, they have John meet Kyle as a child, clearly old enough to remember a war. I suppose a case could be made that Kyle never expressly states he was "born" after the war, and he may have blocked out the billions of people dying and the mushroom clouds.

Just a couple of points. I don't understand why they feel the need to change the story, especially things like that. It seems to me that there could have been other ways of getting the same points across without these changes.

(Now, before any of you say I'm being too picky, please remember that we are a primarily Star Trek group, and how upset were you that they were changing the Trek back story in Enterprise, or even in the new flick? That's what I thought. So let's discuss these points instead of how determined I am to dislike the show or anything. ;) Thanks.)

[Geekyfanboy]

Well luckily I don't care about these points and I just enjoy the show for what it is.. a fun action, sci fi fantasy TV show... so I don't feel the need to be nitpicky and pick everything apart..  And just to point out.. I was not upset with Enterprise and changing the Trek back story.. again I enjoyed it for what it was.. good Sci Fi Fantasy Trek.

[Locutus]

OK, but since we've already discussed at length that you have no desire to be as critical of these types of things; shows, movies, etc; I'm not sure if you trying to tell me I'm being too picky or just reiterating your stance on universal acceptance.

I truly do respect your ability to just refuse to critique, but I would ask that, if indeed you are trying to tell me I'm being too picky, that you would respect my desire to discuss these issues that I feel are part and parcel to my enjoying the show, or indeed any entertainment.

Lest you, Kenny, or anyone, get the feeling that I am upset or angry or lashing out, since it can be difficult to determine tone sometimes (and I know I can sound a little rude when I don't mean to), I am not saying this out of pique, but as someone who counts himself a friend of the people on this board. As far as I am concerned this is a friendly conversation, so there should be no offense taken.

I would ask, though, that when answering my questions, or anyone's questions, that you don't (intentionally or otherwise) marginalize the person's post. I did feel that my questions were unwelcome. I am really not trying to be difficult. I enjoy these discussions, and it is part of the  fun for me. If no one else does, just tell me, and I won't discuss them this way again.

[Geekyfanboy]

I was just stating my opinion.. you are more then welcome to discuss whatever issues you may have with this series. I will not be participating in this discussion since I do not agree with those issues... discuss away.

[Dan M]

I feel the conflict about Kyle Reese's memories is not important.  I didn't remember that, and it sounds like you didn't either until you went back and watched the film.

However, I think we all remembered the problem with metal going through the time travel process.  I know it was a discussion point the next day at work.  I think we could come up with ways to explain it, though.  I've already stated that it may just be a very rough ride, one a human couldn't survive.  From Kyle's perspective, that would make it impossible, but it could explain how Chromartie barely made it through, if not in one piece.

Discussing this stuff is fun to me.  Not to others.

The gentleman in the cubicle across from me was, I think, genuinely concerned that my friends and I were truly arguing about time travel theory a few weeks ago.  At lunch and during breaks we kept coming back to all the interweaved dependencies and the various possible timelines on the show.  It was fun to us, disturbing to him.

[X]

As I've stated earlier in this thread. When they created T2, they tossed the requirements for living flesh out of the window. The T-1000 might look human, but it was a liquid metal alloy. It had no problem going back in time.

As for the Kyle Rease stuff. That's another thing that's easy to address. It was stated that Judgment day was around 1999 and through their efforts it got pushed back. Kyle would have been born after Judgement Day and thus he would have had no memories of the war only the fall out from it.

I don't think can really complain about them changing things in TTSCC because every movie in that universe was about changing the timeline. From sending the Terminators to jumping ahead in time.

I think that the series does well to follow in the premise of the movies: Can time be change or do we create the timeline by attempting to change it? John couldn't have been born without timetravel and it seems that the growth of Skynet is connected to John. They jump into the future and suddenly Judgement day gets pushed back again? Are we sure that John Connor didn't create Skynet and is now in the process of fixing what he caused? For super machines, they haven't really done anything great to kill the guy. I'd still be sending wave after way to kill him in the womb if he wasn't important to the cause. Unless the attempt to kill him was the catalyst they needed to push him to develop something that he thinks will stop Skynet, only for it to become Skynet.