The Perfect Sci Fi Woman (to me)

[QuadShot]

I have always thought of Nova from Planet of the Apes, Linda Harrison, as the perfect sci fi woman. 

She is extremely good looking and quiet!

Please keep in mind that there are women that frequent these boards.  Although you probably didn't intend it this way, that statement can come across very derogatory.  It's as if you're saying "women only have worth if they're traditionally attractive, scantily clad, and quiet."

I don't want to start anything here, and I really struggled about even posting this message.  Especially because this is generally a very accepting and open community.  But this statement was eating away at me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it this morning. 

Again, I know that you likely did not intend this meaning and I'm really not a crazy feminist, but that is how it reads to me. 

Please be a little more careful about the way you word that type of thing.  Or post things like this in the "Babes of Sci-Fi" section, which the women here (at least, the ones I've spoken to) tend to avoid.

Thank you. 

(Mods, I understand if you feel the need to remove this post.  I just couldn't get it out of my mind.)

Agreed Sue.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

What if girls like quiet guys hmm?? 

;)

Nah, but I get what you said Sue.  But there are people who are loud and people who tend to be more reserved and that's how I viewed the comment. 

King

[spaltor]

Just keep in mind that the "intent" of any statement on a forum is sometimes a tricky thing to read.

That's exactly my point.  As I said before, I'm sure than the intent was not one of offense.  However, an "innocent joke" to one person can be hurtful to another.  That's true in all aspects of life (like the recent court case about someone saying "he should have kept her barefoot and pregnant" in the workplace).  However, it is especially true on the internet, where others are only reading your words instead of hearing your inflections and seeing your expressions. 

There was a thread on the forum a while back that basically asked the question "Why aren't there more women on the boards?".  This is why.  Women tend to face a lot of prejudice in fandom, in their careers, and in life.  In general, it seems like we often have to defend ourselves, our interests, and our right to speak our mind.  And a simple, throw-away comment - even it if was not intended to cause any harm or offense - can keep women from joining a community.

Let me make it clear that I did not take any personal offense.  After the last few months of trying to break down some gender stereotypes on Anomaly, the statement bugged me, and I felt the need to point out how the comment could be interpreted by the women on the boards.

And I thank you all for understanding.  :)

[Jen]

I understand where you are coming from, but I saw it as something other than what you saw. I saw it as a tongue in cheek joke about women having to be quiet in days and films of yore. I also don't think that being quite is something offensive. Some people regardless of gender can range on the quiet side. I know plenty of people that are attracted to the quiet time from both sides of the gender aisle and I'm not seeing the same offense that you are. I do understand where you might get offended, but we have to make a lot of assumptions on the meaning of what was written for that. Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when things should be taken at face value and at face value, there is really nothing at all wrong with being attracted to pretty and quiet women. There are many out there and I honestly think it's by choice and not because they are feeling repressed and that they can't speak their minds.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but I do respect what you had to say and I can see your point.

First, thank you to those who agreed with Sue and are cool with us speaking our minds here. This is a good community and I like you guys. I don't think the comment was meant to hurt anyone. I don't know LoneSpar, but I'm willing to bet he did not mean to cause controversy with his post. He likes the character and he made a comment that may or may not have been misinterpreted...

That said, if a woman tells you she read the comment a certain way, then she took it a certain way.  Sue is not forum newb. Plus she's an avid reader and a writer. She's also responsible for communicating with customers on the job as well as with listeners of her show. She is aware that words can be read one way, though they maybe meant another. I am confident that she knows this.

Of course you saw it other than the way she saw it, your dude. Chris, I consider you a friend. You're a smart guy and you're very accepting of people. But, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."???  I know you went on to say you understand her point, but what if the comment was different and people read it as racist? Could you still dismiss it in that way?

I agree with Sue. And since she brought it up, I'm personally I am not a fan of the "Babe's and Hunks" sections either. Granted, this is a male dominated forum and I understand that some guys like that sort of topic and they're going to say things about female characters and the actresses that portray them. We just avoid the section.   

I read the "extremely good looking and quiet" line in the original post as being a bit sexist, whether it was referring to "women in films of yore" or not. There are jokes made all the time about women talking too much. Of course we're going to interpreted the statement the way we did, however he intended it.

I try to ignore online debates like this, because I don't like to get into arguments. Conflict stresses me out. :)  But honestly I think I'm more annoyed by your reply to Sue than the joke itself, X.  You're not a woman. You can't tell her that she shouldn't "read into" things. It sounded condescending. Okay, I think I've said enough about it in public. If anyone wants to PM me about it, I'd be happy to take it outside. ;)

Once more, I like you guys and you have a tight-knit community here. You don't flame people, you try to be accepting of all and you form lasting friendships with the individuals you meet here. That's why I feel like I can jump in on this conversation. If it were posted on any other board, aside from Anomaly or TrekSF, I'd refrain from speaking up because I'd have an anxiety attack over the defensive replies posted afterward.

[Rico]

Sue -

I can understand what you are saying, but I still believe their was no harmful intent in the comment to begin with.  The other thing I must mention is I have been on a great many internet forums over the years.  I would take our community here and say that we have some of the most understanding, caring, thoughtful, intelligent and open minded people around.  I greatly prefer the group here over any other place I've ever visited - big or small.  You have only been around a couple years but we had a few "bad eggs" in the earlier days and they were quickly shown the door by me.  I have to take a slight issue with your comment that the reason more women are not here is because of comments like in the start of this thread.  That would imply this type of thing or type of comment happens quite often - which is simply not true.  I take a great deal of pride and feel responsible (to some degree) as to what happens on the forum.  So, as long as I'm here I really don't think you should feel we don't have your feelings or gender in mind when chatting on the forum.  I hope I haven't made this more that it is, but I felt your comments needed a response from me about this issue.   

[Bryancd]

Why am I now picturing Sue barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen hen pecking some poor slob to death while smoking a cigar?  :biggrin

Thanks you and goodnight, try the veal!  :eekout

[Rico]

Sigh...    :smilie_nono:

Not helping Bryan. 

[Bryancd]

Hey, I was the first one who popped in to support her initial comment so....  :smilie_nono:

[spaltor]

Let me again say that: I am NOT upset. I am NOT angry at anyone.  I am NOT accusing anyone of anything.
And I do NOT want to make anyone else upset.

My point is: Although something may not be intended as hurtful, it can still be hurtful. 

Rico, you're right.  I was not intending to imply that this happens all the time.  It doesn't.  At all.  As I said earlier, this is a very welcoming and open community.  And I've said over and over that it's a great set of amazing people on the forums who are helpful, friendly, and supportive.

But I was not referring specifically to comments in posts.  Many things can contribute to discomfort.  Most of today, whenever I was on the boards, on the left hand side of my screen were photographs of women, wearing very little.  While I can avoid the "Babes & Hunks of Sci-Fi" part of the board, I cannot avoid the "Recent Pics."  I'll tell you honestly that those photographs make me uncomfortable.  Something as simple as that can be off-putting to women.  It give a FALSE impression of what's discussed on the boards, and if a woman is checking out the forum for the first time and sees that, she may go somewhere else.

It's true when Jen said.  As men, you can't know how a woman will interpret or react to something.  So, you may have no idea that something could be taken a way that wasn't intended.  I don't want to start a fight.  My goal was to point out - in a friendly way - that the comment posted could be taken a different way that was intended.  I didn't want for this to become the issue that it has.

I hope we can all learn from in and move forward.  I love you guys, and I don't want to damage any relationships.

And just in case, here's a comic that may better explain the point I'm trying to make.

[Rico]

Again, I see your point and I believe you see mine.  BUT, I don't want to control this place with an iron fist either.  In my mind I have line that if someone crosses it on the forum I will talk to them and try and resolve the issue.  What took place in this thread is not over that line - not really even close.  I want people to feel somewhat free to joke around a little and have a good time here.  That is what I mean by intent.  In my day to day life in the "real world" unless someone gets in my face about something and makes it personal I really don't care what people say about anything.  People have a right to voice their views and opinions - at least in a good portion of the world.  I know some people get bothered by a lot more than I do by things that happen or are said.  Men and women both.  I have a fairly thick skin for the most part.  Anyway, I guess that's all I have to add at this point.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

No one ever answers my questions these days :(

King

[spaltor]

Thanks, Rico.  I do believe we're making the same points.  No line was crossed.  No one was attacked.  And I'm certainly not asking for censorship of any kind on the boards.  All I wanted to do was bring up a point for thought and discussion, and I think there was a good one.

I feel safe on these boards.  Which is why I even posted in this thread to begin with, without fear of being flamed or yelled at or anything else.

[X]

I understand where you are coming from, but I saw it as something other than what you saw. I saw it as a tongue in cheek joke about women having to be quiet in days and films of yore. I also don't think that being quite is something offensive. Some people regardless of gender can range on the quiet side. I know plenty of people that are attracted to the quiet time from both sides of the gender aisle and I'm not seeing the same offense that you are. I do understand where you might get offended, but we have to make a lot of assumptions on the meaning of what was written for that. Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when things should be taken at face value and at face value, there is really nothing at all wrong with being attracted to pretty and quiet women. There are many out there and I honestly think it's by choice and not because they are feeling repressed and that they can't speak their minds.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but I do respect what you had to say and I can see your point.

Of course you saw it other than the way she saw it, your dude. Chris, I consider you a friend. You're a smart guy and you're very accepting of people. But, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."???  I know you went on to say you understand her point, but what if the comment was different and people read it as racist? Could you still dismiss it in that way?

I actually think that you bring up a good point. One that I can answer with a conservation that I had only hours ago today.
My father brought to my attention of something written on a rock on Mitt Romney's property today. He wasn't happy with what was written and thought it was connected to the views of Mitt. His reason being that if it was on Mitt's property then Mitt knew about it and should have done something else he quietly supported what was written.

My view was something completely different. I learned what was written and where it was located and my first reaction was annoyance with the words, but my second reaction was to take a step back and not blame Mitt, who I don't like, for something that he might not be a part of. Instead of connecting the words on the rock with the views of Mitt. I didn't have enough information to make a decision, so my decision was to not blame someone for something that they might not be a part of. The way I think isn't something that I turn on or off. I try to see comment as neutral until proven differently. There is nothing at all wrong with liking beautiful and quiet women. It's when we attach other preconceived ideas that it can become a problem.

As to if the comment was racist or something like that, I can say this: Everyday people say things that can be taken as something not intended. I try hard as hell to look at intent before I judge those comments. I personally hate when people take slight over some simple comment and assume it to be racist when the person speaking or saying the comment didn't intend it.

At the end of the day, I can say that I don't try to be tolerant, I try to be understanding and accepting. I also don't have any problems telling someone that their comments were wrong. I might not be a woman, but I was raised by one, married to one, and working hard to raise one. Not being a woman doesn't mean that I can't see or fight against sexism. I don't have to be a woman to want equality for women. I don't have to be gay to want the same for those that are. My comment about a cigar is exactly that. The words by themselves and in the context they were written are not wrong or hurtful. It's when we start attaching our ideas of what those words mean that they can be taken out of context and assumed to have other intent.

If I saw something wrong, I would say so. As I said in my previous post, I didn't agree with what Sue inferred, but I did understand her position. I'm sure that we can empathize with a view we don't share, but at the same time, I said what I said because I didn't see malicious intent from LoneSpar. If there was intent there, you can be 100% assured that I would have been the first in line to say something.

[moyer777]

How did I miss all this? well you probably know how I feel about all this.  When I was younger I was of a different opinion, now after 25+ years of marriage I think differently.  My wife is complex, my daughter is too, and they let me know what they think about stuff.  That is a good thing.

[Jobydrone]

Frankly, if any person, male or female, finds a fully clothed picture of a popular actor or actress so disturbing that they choose not to frequent these boards for that reason, then there's probably something else they're going to see here that disturbs them even worse and they probably are making the right decision not to participate.  They'd be missing out on a great group of people, of course, and it would be their great loss. 

Seriously, the sexiest picture posted today was from a G rated movie released in 1968!